Mr. Fred Elliott

From: Fred Elliott (blydeinvestments@hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: You have been banned
Date: October 2, 2010 7:11:11 PM GMT+09:00
To: admin@expatexposed.com

HA HA HA !!! Read my other post. I predicted this !!! Bunch of whinging Poms. I personally don't haave any " sexual insecurities " but it is apparent that a lot of members ( excuse the pun ) youself included, do !!

Old Chinese proverb " IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT THEN FUCK OFF }

From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: You have been banned
Date: October 2, 2010 10:36:57 PM GMT+09:00
To: Fred Elliott (blydeinvestments@hotmail.com)

On Oct 2, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Fred Elliott wrote:

> HA HA HA !!! Read my other post.

Would that be this one?

"Hi aklgap, is jerry not capable of telling me all by himself?? Are you his Nancy Boy?

Or this one?

Got a direct hit on you Nancy.

This?

You probably feel this way towards all women do you, small p===s?

Or this?

Might help to get your wife off the street Jerry.

7 posts, not one about who you are and what you hope to contribute to the discussion. You would have done well to apply that "Chinese" proverb to yourself, Fred.

Regards,

Admin

Ms. Katie Lavers & Mr. Jonathan Hanlon

From: Katie Lavers (katielavers@yahoo.co.uk)
Subject: Your website is sad
Date: December 16, 2009 9:18:38 AM GMT+09:00
To: expat.exposed@gmail.com

Dear expat. exposed,
I was recommended to look at your website for a laugh by my kiwi mate as an example of whinging pom's. It was hillarious! People complaining about heating and lack of good food - did they research the country at all before they decided to make the move out here? Do these people make all their decisions based on advertising and hype?

My husband and I moved out here from the uk over two years ago and have absolutely loved every minute of it. I have met plenty of Brits unhappy with the move and they have all had massive issues with themselves and the reasons for their move in the first place, whether it be to save a marriage or change patterns of behaviour in themselves, to overt racism at the multi-culturalism of Britain today. These people will always want to move or complain about their circumstances as they cannot see that the problem is in themselves not where they are.

Promoting a website that encourages people to blame an entire country for their own decision-making is completely irresponsible and idiotic, it merely enables these people to play the victim role when there is no-one else responsible for their life other than themselves.

New Zealand is what it is, as England is what it is. The world is not perfect - deal with it!


A happy ex-pat embarrassed by her clan * ** **

From: Admin, Expat Exposed
Subject: Re: Your website is sad
Date: December 16, 2009 12:04:11 PM GMT+09:00
To: Katie Lavers (katielavers@yahoo.co.uk)

Dear Katie,

So being routinely frozen out, screamed at as a "Chink", being referred to as someone who should be deported or killed — you consider those things to be so acceptable?

That's fine, you're entitled to your own views of my 18 months in New Zealand

But if it's acceptable, then there's no need to hide them away from general view, is there?


Merry Christmas to you too,

Agness
Co-Founder and Administrator, Expat Exposed

From: Jonathan (jonnyhanlon@gmail.com)
Subject: I agree with Katie
Date: December 17, 2009 7:28:24 AM GMT+09:00
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hi there Agness

I am in full agreement with Katie Lavers. She wrote a very well composed email to you and you replied to her with an off the topic rant about racism.
The key reason why many immigrants to NZ have a difficult time is that they arrive unprepared. Before they leave their home country, they are swept up in the fantasy that NZ is a paradise that will solve their problems. It would be fair to say that many people who move here on that presumption are trying to escape from personal problems and family issues. People are also very prone to seeing the best in their home country and the worst in a new country. We are all subjects of our upbringing.

It is unfortunate for you that you have gone to such great lengths to complain... Complaining is obviously a huge part of your life, and the end result is that you must be a rather sad person.

Would everything magically be better if you returned to Nederland?

Kind regards,

Jonathan

From: Admin, Expat Exposed
Subject: Re: I agree with Katie
Date: December 17, 2009 4:23:58 PM GMT+09:00
To: Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

? I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I'm not Dutch, I'm American-Japanese.

BTW, just out of curiosity, is there a particular reason you two are spontaneously writing angry notes to me? It's only a week to go till Christmas, you know. Shouldn't you be doing nice things for people?

Agness

*Link added

Mr. Richard Browne

From: Richard Browne (richb257@hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: New Private Message has arrived
Date: June 8, 2009 5:57:12 PM GMT+09:00
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Fuck off out of NZ,you fucking Cunt..You will never be happy wherever u live..

Mr. Richard Browne

From: Richard Browne (richb257@hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Your reputation has changed
Date: June 8, 2009 5:56:27 PM GMT+09:00
To: admin@expatexposed.com

You can fuck off and kill yourself you miserable fucking CUNTS..Fuck off out of NZ..

Mr. Mark Wallace

From: mark wallace (kiwifrog21@yahoo.com)
Subject: Deactivate...grow up, quit whining or gtfo out of nz.
Date: January 14, 2009 1:02:31 PM GMT+09:00
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Food for the party season - Easy recipes for Christmas entertaining on Yahoo!Xtra Lifestyle

Ms. Lynette Burlison

From: Lynette Burlison (burlisonlynette@yahoo.com)
Subject: deactivate
Date: January 1, 2009 4:37:28 AM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com
Reply-To: burlisonlynette@yahoo.com

I don't have the energy for whining expats who do not have what it takes to make the grade

Mr. Neil Madsen

From Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: July 11, 2008 6:35:25 AM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

I had forgotten all about this website. I now know why. It is vile. Absolutely fucking vile.
New Zealand, like anywhere, isn't perfect but we have built a great life here.
You and your group of morons seem to think that New Zealand is the only country with problems.
Maybe you should take a closer look at your previous homelands sometime. I travel with
my job alot. I am a regular visitor to the USA, Canada, Australia and the UK and I read the
same headlines there.
If only some of you would channel your energies elsewhere, you could do something amazing!

From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:04:19 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Dear Neil,

We would advise people not to sign up with sites they find "absolutely fucking vile". It really does save everyone a lot of time.

From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: July 16, 2008 6:20:07 AM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hi there

Thanks for your reply.

I will tell you why I signed up for this website when I heard about it on the Network news last year.

I was concerned and I wanted to help as moving to a new country is a difficult, stressful and expensive
exercise. I know, I have done it and guess what? I moved back here because its actually a great
place to be.

But upon investigating further into this website I have discovered that my new fellow countrymen
regarded me and all other New Zealanders as liars and thieves, bad tradesmen and arrogant. We all
beat our wives and children, we mug every tourist etc etc etc. The list goes on. And of course
these things never happen in the US or the UK.

Many of the criticisms thrown at New Zealand are based on statistics. Anyone who has studied statistics
will know that when you have a small population sample, you will have high variation. Well, New Zealand
has a small population so thats why we nearly always appear at the top of the scale or at the bottom.
Wintersmith is a strong offender here. Whenever NZ rates highly in something (and yes, it does happen),
she picks the stat apart to make it bad. When NZ rates poorly in something, she leaves the
stat as it is. A complete joke.

I apologise for my bad language in my previous email, but I can understand why some people
feel insulted by some of the content of this website. If I emigrated to the U.S and set up
something like this, I would be lynched at dawn. Possibly quite rightly.

Thank you for reading my email

Neil

From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:26:59 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Dear Neil,

Your apology is accepted, and appreciated. We get a lot of hate mail and threats, but nobody's ever apologized for one before.

I can confidently say that if someone built an "Immigrants beware, the U.S. has a lot of problems" Web site, nobody would care. In fact, nobody would bother to build one because America's dark side is very well known all over the world already. In the country itself, you can find "it's hard to live in America" articles every day by scanning major newspapers and magazines. Criticizing the society we live in is considered a birthright as an American, even a patriotic duty. Among people who are your peers in level of education (guessing from your writing), a suggestion of lynching would be met with, well, incredulity.

You take issues with my use of stats, and I'm fine with that. It's a valid criticism in and of itself. What you're missing is the context of Expat Exposed. If you're a non-Kiwi skilled migrants these days, you're beset by an incredible volume of positive spin and misinformation. New Zealand Immigration Service is a top offender, and there's a lot of people (a Dept. of Labour employee I spoke to estimated that it was now in the top 6 of Kiwi industries) making a living as migration service providers of all sorts. The funny thing is, a large number of migrants from the UK actually end up starting a business in tourism or migrant field, instead of getting more useful jobs. The overall effect is a pretty unrealistic picture of New Zealand supported by the government, private sector and landed migrants themselves. The media is also poor at presenting a balanced view, to say the least. So on one hand, there's an army of overly optimistic spin, backed by millions of dollars. And then there's us, 3 people with laptops, trying to provide a small reality check.

It would be really refreshing if even half the people who send us hate mail complained to NZIS about selling NZ too hard to migrants, or to Fairfax Media for harping on just the problems caused by migrants, or to the expat forums who kick out members who've talked about not being able to find a job because of no "Kiwi experience".

You know what's rather funny, Neil? All we wanted was to set up a quiet board to talk about the social ills found in NZ, the kind that you and I can both agree that any OECD nation has. A couple of us were having trouble with really greedy landlords. Another's son was being bullied for being foreign. There were 3 or 4 teachers who couldn't get any schools to hire them. Those of us of Asian and Middle-Eastern extraction were really struggling with racial prejudice. Problem with loud hoons, dismay about cultural differences regarding things like alcohol and corporal punishment, issues that we just wanted to discuss with each other and also share with willing prospective migrants. A pretty modest wish, anyone would say, but existing boards wouldn't let us do this in peace. So we had to go to the trouble of building our own. When we were 3 weeks old and had 25 members—and happy with how small and safe it was—it all went to hell. Some British migration consultant who'd been threatening to sue us called a national television network on us. And amazingly enough, the network actually decided we were worth doing a story on. And instead of saying, "Couldn't TV ONE find something more important to talk about?" a lot of viewers went crazy for it. The response was big enough for TVNZ to bring me back 2 more times. They even gave out my mobile number (without permission) to some National MP, and tried their deceitful best to put me on camera with her.

Forget the statistics, this chain of events itself shows something pretty sick. Why did so many Kiwis become so angry at a small group of people talking about the bad things that happened to them in NZ? Why are so many migrants so toxically angry with Kiwi society, to the point that some declare that they hate all Kiwis? Why does NZ's ratepayer-funded television network go around chasing this non-story, and spin it intentionally to cause potentially dangerous controversy? Why exactly were they using the fake controversy to boost the National Party? Why have we had to deal with literally hundreds of instances of vandalism and harassment, all originating from Kiwi IPs, in the 8 months since that idiotic news coverage?

In a neat parallel, someone built something like Expat Exposed, but more extreme, for Canada (NotCanada.com). The Canadians did not pillory them on national news, not once, not twice, certainly not 3 times. Instead, there was an online article on CTV about it, a very balanced one talking about how badly the country was failing both skilled immigrants and Canadian society. The article didn't deny the problems NotCanada pointed out, but actually presented supporting evidence. The difference was heartbreaking.

Thank you again for communicating with us, and taking the time to apologize. Let me know if you'd like your account deactivated.


Best regards,

Agness Kaku, aka Wintersmith
Co-Admin, Expat Exposed

From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: July 25, 2008 1:37:13 PM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hi ya Agnes
Greetings from a very sunny Auckland!
Thanks for your interesting e-mail and for taking the time to come back to me.
I certainly take on some of the points you have made, and I am disgusted that you have been the target of vandalism and harassment. That is not acceptable.

I have no doubt about some of the problems migrants have when they come here, how often have we heard about doctors driving taxis in Central Auckland? Only a few months back I was shopping in Harvey Norman and the sales chap was from Iraq. He was a Boeing 747 Captain who has had his pilots license withdrawn by the US Government so he can no longer fly. Whilst his anger was definitely directed at the Americans, surely a man of this stature should be doing more than selling washing machines. After making the sale, he took me over to the cashier to pay for my purchase. The cashier was also from Iraq. She was a fully qualified rocket scientist who had previously worked on Saddam’s
Weapons programs. Whilst the demand for rocket scientists in New Zealand is pretty much non existence, it was a shame to see such a bright young(ish) women sitting at a till in a department store.
Both could have been contributing much more to the New Zealand economy.

But I do wonder sometimes if people apply themselves, or if people expect too much at first. I moved to the UK in 1988. I was fully qualified in my field but when I got there I could not get a job at all because I had no UK work experience. Sound familiar? Very frustrating. So what did I do? I didn’t bitch and moan, I got a job in a call centre (same industry). A massive step back in stature and pay. I hated it, but after 5 months I had my UK work experience. What a load of bollocks! After about a further 12 months I landed the job I should have had all along. I returned to New Zealand in 1997 and had to go through it all again. So, it doesn’t just happen to migrants.

Obviously I don’t agree with everything you have mentioned. I think your website was newsworthy. Not in a big way and certainly not an ongoing story, but we have it very good here for many years and there is a percentage of the population that think that all is okay. Pointing out that there are problems from another perspective, and being the first to do it will make the news on a quiet day. Of course if Helen Clarke revealed she was a man, or if Graham Henry had farted in public, then I guess you wouldn’t have got a look in.

Thank you for the link to NotCanada.com. Very interesting. I saw your contribution in regards to kiwis taking a panning very badly ! I think most kiwis can handle some criticism but I think what has upset some, including myself, is the personal attacks on us. I have read grossly exaggerated attacks from your contributor DANINNZ which I find offensive. For example he says that NZ has a food poisoning rate 25 times higher than the USA. Bullshit! And that you have to watch the hygiene standards when visiting NZ homes. I’m sorry but my house is spotless. So are all my friends.

Agnes, I will take my hat off to you though. You came here, it didn’t work out so you left again. That’s more than some will do so good on you. Just as an interest, did you go back to the US? Or have you tried somewhere else? The other things I would like to know is, what were you expecting here?
And where did you live in NZ? I have a feeling from the news it was Christchurch?

Just for your interest. I am a New Zealander married to a migrant. I travel to the US sometimes up to 4 times a month. If don’t go there I go to either Hong Kong, Japan, Australia and Canada. I’m University educated (hence the business with statistics!!) and have a pretty good idea of what’s going on in the world. Whilst I recognise the problems in/with New Zealand, I still regard it as one of the best countries in the world to live. Just my opinion of course!
Take care, and hear from you again
Neil

From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 01:52:13 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Hi Neil,

I'm going to try and answer your major points, but I will probably have to bow out of further private back-and-forth on this (if you want to give me permission to post this exchange and perhaps even add to it, be my guest). A lot of the same ground has already been covered on the board more than once, and the amount of mail I get—in addition to actual paying work and getting our life back in shape after this expensive migration—really limits my time.

On Jul 25, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Neil Madsen wrote:

I have no doubt about some of the problems migrants have when they come here, how often have we heard about doctors driving taxis in Central Auckland? Only a few months back I was shopping in Harvey Norman and the sales chap was from Iraq. He was a Boeing 747 Captain who has had his pilots license withdrawn by the US Government so he can no longer fly. Whilst his anger was definitely directed at the Americans, surely a man of this stature should be doing more than selling washing machines. After making the sale, he took me over to the cashier to pay for my purchase. The cashier was also from Iraq. She was a fully qualified rocket scientist who had previously worked on Saddam’s
Weapons programs. Whilst the demand for rocket scientists in New Zealand is pretty much non existence, it was a shame to see such a bright young(ish) women sitting at a till in a department store.
Both could have been contributing much more to the New Zealand economy.

I think it's interesting that you felt justified anger very easily against the U.S. government/employers, but stop well short of that reaction against the New Zealand equivalent. You're going to have to ask yourself if misplaced patriotism plays some part in that difference. From where I'm standing, both countries have screwed them over pretty badly.

But I do wonder sometimes if people apply themselves, or if people expect too much at first. I moved to the UK in 1988. I was fully qualified in my field but when I got there I could not get a job at all because I had no UK work experience. Sound familiar? Very frustrating. So what did I do? I didn’t bitch and moan, I got a job in a call centre (same industry). A massive step back in stature and pay. I hated it, but after 5 months I had my UK work experience. What a load of bollocks! After about a further 12 months I landed the job I should have had all along. I returned to New Zealand in 1997 and had to go through it all again. So, it doesn’t just happen to migrants.

What you're missing here is that skilled migrants are being aggressively courted by NZ. Try sending away for the standard NZIS packet, or attend one of many expos overseas. You'll be amazed to learn that NZ is struggling to fill a variety of skilled jobs, and is *begging* for educated, motivated people to come and fill those jobs. As a part of the skilled migrant process, they give you points for being in a skills shortage area. They assess your overseas qualifications and 'convert' them to Kiwi equivalent, and give you points for those too. All this creates an impression so strong as to be a promise: that these qualifications will be honored when you get to NZ, that these unfilled jobs are real, and that as a fully-vetted skilled migrant (we have to submit health and police certificates, fergodssake), employers won't treat you like a criminal/idiot/Ebola patient. If you'd gone through the same wooing and vetting process when you went to the UK, the inability to get a skilled job wouldn't have been just frustrating—it would have been devastating. Having gritted your teeth and did what you had to, you can probably appreciate even more how much grit—don't see any lack of application or bitching there—the pilot and the propulsion engineer are showing, working at Harvey Norman after having made the cut to migrate to a country that supposedly wanted them for their education and skills. And all this while their country burns.

Obviously I don’t agree with everything you have mentioned. I think your website was newsworthy. Not in a big way and certainly not an ongoing story, but we have it very good here for many years and there is a percentage of the population that think that all is okay. Pointing out that there are problems from another perspective, and being the first to do it will make the news on a quiet day. Of course if Helen Clarke revealed she was a man, or if Graham Henry had farted in public, then I guess you wouldn’t have got a look in.

My second appearance was on the day of the Russian elections returns. The year and a half we were there, anxiety about "non-traditional" migrants, the outflow of Kiwis and "OMG the Asians!" were nearly constantly in the news. The message is regularly coming in from all sides, but the country doesn't want to have a discussion. The media just sets up and shoots each messenger, and then the whole thing begins again. Coming from a country that's convinced half its citizens that discussing problems is a bad idea, I can honestly say that this is dangerous practice.

Thank you for the link to NotCanada.com. Very interesting. I saw your contribution in regards to kiwis taking a panning very badly ! I think most kiwis can handle some criticism but I think what has upset some, including myself, is the personal attacks on us.

If people aren't talking about you, as in Neil Madsen, how can it be "personal"? An insightful author once noted something called the "Kiwi personalized view of the world", or some such. I think the gist of his observations was that in New Zealand, arguments and actions are hardly ever received as abstract, or on meta-level. Everything is taken personally, and relates to the personhood, whether it's being fired or having some social policy criticized. When I heard about that, a lot of things clicked into place. It was astounding, the sheer number of Kiwis who, like you, reacted as though their mom had been insulted, when it was government policies and social trends that were being criticized. Like it or not, this is a real phenomenon. And it's a Kiwi cultural characteristics that migrants should know about before coming over, because it's a rather unusual trait and one that a lot of people just won't be able to adapt.

I have read grossly exaggerated attacks from your contributor DANINNZ which I find offensive. For example he says that NZ has a food poisoning rate 25 times higher than the USA. Bullshit! And that you have to watch the hygiene standards when visiting NZ homes. I’m sorry but my house is spotless. So are all my friends.

Does his experience invalidate yours? Does your experience invalidate his? No. Neither of you have to be lying or spouting bullshit. Maybe he lives in a different region from you. Maybe you mix with a different socioeconomic status than him. Maybe you guys have different standards of home care. Why take something like this so personally, and so hard? This kind of overreaction really is something that most Exies agree is consistent and very tough to deal with. Most of us come from backgrounds where you have to be able to disagree with people without getting personal, and learned thanks to the Web to stay away from thing you have no control over that drives you nuts. As for something that cites hard facts like food poisoning, just do a calm once-over of the study this person cites, and make a case for why the claim is absurd. Have faith in people's ability to spot reason.

Agnes, I will take my hat off to you though. You came here, it didn’t work out so you left again. That’s more than some will do so good on you.

Ah, but the fact that we could leave is more a function of our financial, professional and familial freedom. I know people who can't leave, because of money, custody issues, money, and even depression. They're not less worthy of admiration because they haven't left.

Just as an interest, did you go back to the US? Or have you tried somewhere else?

No, we've decided to settle in Tokyo.

The other things I would like to know is, what were you expecting here?

There's a post by me called "Musings from the Land of Shrimp" that pretty much covers the topic. It's in "Features".

And where did you live in NZ? I have a feeling from the news it was Christchurch?

Yes indeed, since NZIS gave us IT people extra points for staying out of Auckland and for moving to the "Canterbury Software Cluster".

Just for your interest. I am a New Zealander married to a migrant. I travel to the US sometimes up to 4 times a month. If don’t go there I go to either Hong Kong, Japan, Australia and Canada. I’m University educated (hence the business with statistics!!) and have a pretty good idea of what’s going on in the world. Whilst I recognise the problems in/with New Zealand, I still regard it as one of the best countries in the world to live. Just my opinion of course!

If you're living where you want to, that makes you one of the luckiest people in the world.

My correspondence to you was never about trying to convince you that I'm not an asshole; it was about trying to get past your anger and show you the other New Zealand that all these posts revealed. Yes, you're going to be able to find something imperfect about every poster. If you want to, you'll be able to dismiss this one for not being well-traveled, that one for coming across as snobbish, and this one for sounding a little nuts. You can do that with any human being, and be safe from ever having to deal with the ills that plague them. Or you can rise above the personalized view and see the big picture that this mixed bag of people are showing us, a surprisingly consistent picture. The country that you love and enjoy could use a clearer eye right now. Rooking people in with propaganda just to keep the country afloat is neither realistic nor moral, and will bring New Zealand a worse place in the long run.

Best of luck,

Agness

From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: August 7, 2008 5:15:58 AM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Ohayoo Bozaimasu Agnes

Thanks for your reply.

Tokyo. Thats an interesting choice. My company has strong connections with Japan and I go there
about 5-6 times a year. My brother is also a pilot for JAL. Great place, nice food but its beyond me why you would want to live there.
The sheer size of the population, the matchbox size houses, the pollution and the smoking in restaurants etc does not make
it an attractive destination. I find it funny that you once labelled New Zealanders racist when the Japanese are the biggest racist of all. The Japanese people on the face of it are lovely, very polite. But the way they won’t confront you face to face over an issue is deeply disturbing. Only behind your back will they settle things. Trust me, you will become very familiar with the saying “Beware of the Smiling Knife”.
Maybe its being back in a big economy that makes you feel more secure.

It is now absolutely clear that New Zealand was never going to be the place for you.
You are right. I am lucky to live somewhere where I am happy. I have a fantastic job and a great life. But I built this life myself and so can any migrant who comes here.


Don't worry, I have no intention of continuing this personal correspondence. You will not hear from me again. I have had my say. Whilst I respect your opinions, and even agree with some, I don’t feel that is mirrored by yourself. In fact, judging by some of your answers, it is clear you have misread many of my points. Its not me that’s angry….

Would you please deactivate my account. I have no further use for it. I would have dearly loved to have helped some of you but I would be wasting my time. On the site when you make a positive comment on NZ, or if you correct someone with some facts., you get a minus point. Pretty pathetic and not very democratic. I even got one from you - cheers!
Enjoy Japan, hope it works out for you and your family. Sayoonara!

Neil
Aka oceancolourscene

From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:45:52 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Hello Neil,

Your deactivation request will be processed within 48 hours. And don't worry about us in Tokyo (both lived there before, speak the language fluently); as with any destination, it's about whether the positives outweigh the negative for the individual. For *us*, it does. The reason migrants aren't rushing unawares to Tokyo or Japan is that the drawbacks you mention and more are common knowledge—and achieving that visibility for NZ's downsides is what we're trying to do with Expat Exposed. As for the 'smiling knife' saying, that's definitely not Japanese. Whoever told you that was confused, I think.

Re: your login, I wish you'd seen fit to have this exchange on the board if you'd already signed up. That way, other people would have been able to benefit from our exchange of opinions. They would have also been able to see the other side of you—the part that's capable of apologizing for lashing out, the part that wants to have a conversation instead of hitting and running. If it hurt you that you didn't get a thumbs-up, it's a double shame. If you'd revealed this side of yourself in public, I'm certain that people, including myself, would have given you credit for it. The funny thing is, having had the bad experience we did, we're complete suckers for Kiwis that are capable of empathizing, and want to talk to us like human beings. It's the reason people voted to award a recent contest prize to a charming Cantabrian in his 70s, instead of to a migrant.

Sadly, all we've seen of "oceancolourscene" on the board is hostile behavior like the "Why are you still bothering us, go away!" comment; aside from me, nobody else on the board got to know that there's more to you than this.

I've had quite a few personal exchanges with people who've started off writing me nasty notes, and it's been a fascinating ride. I think New Zealand is way overdue for an intensive national discussion about migration—both of Kiwis leaving and new migrants coming in. People have a lot of valuable things to say after they're done with the initial yelling and swearing, and it's time to build some public policy out of them.


Good luck,

ASK

From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: August 7, 2008 3:22:46 PM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hello Agnes

Thanks for deactivating my account, you won't hear from me again.

Please don't think I'm knocking your decision to go to Tokyo. I think the point I was making
is its a world away from New Zealand so I can see why you didn't like it here. This will make
you laugh, I would rather live in Tokyo than Christchurch! Please don't think I'm anti - Japanese.
Far from it, I have many Japanese friends and hope to have many more.
However, the "smiling knife" thing came from a Japanese co-worker in regards
to another one. She was infact a completely nasty piece of work so maybe they only keep
that saying for her type. I am right though in saying they don't like direct confrontation.

My comment on "why are you bothering us?" is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever
said and I am embarassed. I have learnt from it and regret it. Engaging the brain in first
gear before speaking is an old motto, but a very good one.

Take care Agnes. Hope everything works out for you and your family

Neil

Mr. Barry Davidson

From: barry davidson (pukemanu38@gmail.com)
Subject: Re: The "Big Picture" rule has been de-fuzzed
Date: January 16, 2008 6:48:05 PM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hey,
If you don't want to be here, fine, go back where you came from, if you can't afford the return fare, fine let me know please, i know hundreds of kiwis who will buy your tickets for. Make way for all the people who want to come and live here. We are sick of whingeing buggars that don't know a good thing when it bites them on the bum. If you can't get work or fit in with our way of life perhaps you should take a long hard look at yourself. This is NOT the USA,thank goodness, or any other country, this is New zealand.
You can stuff your "Big Picture" rule or any other rule, where the sun don't shine.
Please, please do us all a big favour and bugger off, maybe to Kenya, or Mogadishu, anywhere but here.
Barry Davidson
ex member of expatexposed.

Part 8: This is how we do things in the bizarro world

By the time Wednesday the 28th rolled around, things looked to have quieted down. I had a pile of work from Disney, Expat Exposed was leisurely acquiring traffic, and we were looking for light-up shoes for one of our nephews' birthday. Then one of ExEx moderators called up. He had been phoned at work by TVNZ, wanting to do a story about Expat Exposed. Yes, our 3-week-old site with 28 (?) members. How had they gotten his contact information? Why were they under the mistaken assumption that he was one of the founders? In any case, we arranged that they should call me instead. You can read about the interview and the resulting furor (which led to 2 more TV appearances) on Expat Exposed.

Besides the media interest itself, what we found utterly bizaare was that it was move2nz that had contacted TVNZ about us. Because of lawsuit threats, I had to make sure TVNZ knew what it was getting into, and in the course of the discussion, it came out that the Bells had gone to TVNZ with this non-story of our existence and handed over personal information about an ex-member, who just so happens to be Trisha's husband. Yes, the same nice lady they'd threatened to sue. Why they didn't hand over my personal e-mail instead, we can only speculate about. All I can do is speculate, in fact, about why someone would consider it a retaliation to send us thousands of visitors and increase our membership count 14-fold. I suppose if you think very short-term, it sort of makes sense. Move2nz was also featured on the first news report, and apparently presented as "good migrants" who had the last say over evil Expat Exposed. I think they got more air time as well. Was it worth all the boost they gave us to be able to deride us for a few minutes on national television? And of course, they weren't on for the subsequent 2 appearances. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. All 3 programs are available here. No, I haven't watched them and I don't intend do. Why is everyone so surprised by that? Whatever happened to privacy laws? Something about how we were rude guests criticizing the tea and crumpets we were served. Hm.

• NZ$1700 for EOI, application and migrant levy.
• NZ$600+ for a full physical.
• Being fingerprinted twice, for about NZ$65.
• References from workplace and colleges. Financial statements.
• Cost of initial visit.
• The moving cost and set-up.

A $13,000+ cup of tea. From what I'm told, they started with a complete hatchet job and backpedaled to a fairer coverage with 2nd and 3rd. I declined to participate in the planned 4th coverage for reasons covered in the next installment.

Part 7: Less talking would be nice

Three full days after being threatened with imminent summons, all I've gotten are 5 e-mails that say far too much about the person who wrote them. I found myself in an unusual position of having to remind the person who was doing the threatening that he was hurting his own case.

November 11, 2007 1:04:09 PM GMT+13:00

Hello Mike,

Does your lawyer know you're writing to me again and again like this?

You know, you did actually state "I noticed recently that you contacted a member and made defamatory statements about me personally". Certainly looks as though you're admitting that you read her private messages, but I'll let people decide for themselves from your own words. Or are you saying you managed to write a search algorithm that looked through all of Trisha's private messages and heuristically determined if they are defamatory? You certainly do have a massive technical advantage over me in that case. That's a seriously valuable technology and could make you a lot of money. I recommend Draper Fisher Jurvitson.

Now that that's addressed, I'm going to do you a favor and end this stage of the communication. It's really not appropriate for a self-declared plaintiff to be writing at such length, repeatedly, to one of the intended lawsuit targets. Your lawyer can reach me at this mail address, and I'll put her/him in touch with our guy. Just let the pros hash it out.

Agness

Part 6: I just can't stop threatening you

You know, being threatened by move2nz can be pretty time-consuming. Is it too much to expect that the threats be presented in an orderly fashion? I guess so.

November 10, 2007 9:57:32 PM GMT+13:00

Hi Mike,

With such a laundry list of grievances, I wish you'd organize them a little better. I don't have the time to address them separately at the moment, so I'll just touch on the points that stand out.

• A disclaimer unilaterally attached to an e-mail has no power to create mutual consent. It's law, not magic.
• I've included a mention that Trisha is a member of Expat Exposed. Thanks for pointing out the omission--some people have asked me where she is, so this will let them find her more easily.
• If you'd like, you can send me this other e-mail that you think you sent her. My impression is, she's only received that one.
• "The defamatory statement you have printed is not the one this email was in answer to." In that case, let me know which statement you were referring originally, and I'll edit the entry.

"I have failed to find it on our forum or in any of the private messages sent through our site." Wow. So you really do read the PMs.

Anyway, I don't think we'll have any better luck communicating by e-mail than we did on the forums, so if you're ready, let's just do this through our respective lawyers (ExEx has a relationship with a local firm, conveniently enough). I'm surprised that you'd feel so insecure about your venture that you feel compelled to try and police the opinion of a single former member. You really should rest easier, you know. You and Tammy have done a good job of creating a community for like-minded people, and you should let that feed your confidence, not your fears.

Regards,

Agness

But of course, my evening's work was not yet done. A scant hour later, I get another e-mail from them:

November 11, 2007 10:58:20 AM GMT+13:00

Agness,

Thank you for your email but you failed to answer my request. Please remove the comments posted on your site. It is enough that you are clearly aware that the statements you have published are incorrect and refuse to remove them. It is not my responsibility to correct poorly researched ramblings. I also fail to see any reason why the situation with Trisha is anything at all to do with you.

To clear up one point you misunderstood. Not being technically aware you assumed I had read through several thousand private messages. This is not the case. The messages are stored in a database and a keywork search was carried out. I see no point in explaining the technicalities of such an action to you but no private messages were actually read in this operation by a human as none matched the search for criteria.

Personally (a I mentioned in my reply to you) I do not understand why you are attacking me, my wife and my organisation in this way. Perhaps you can explain why you are devoting your personal site to attacking me and setting up an new one principally to attack an established organisation actively working to help people as a free service.

Mike

Hm? Earth to you. I believe it is correct, and have evidence to back it up. You really don't get why I would step in when I see someone being bullied? Oh Mike. Oo, cheeky! ...and if you'd gotten a hit, you would have read the PM at that point. Besides, snooping is snooping. If you Google something instead of running around shouting for what you need, did you not still search? Step away from the paranoia. I don't need to install, mod and template an entire forum to do that. Oh please. It's an ad-driven business venture you've chosen to start up, not an aid agency.

Part 5: Lies! All lies!

On November 10th, the move2nz admins discovered that I had made a post about them on this, my personal site, along with the threatening letter (now split into Parts 1 and 2 of this series). They did not take it well.

November 10, 2007 3:42:35 PM GMT+13:00

Agness,

You have again made incorrect and untrue statements about move2nz based on poor information.

For example a query was posted on the site stating that negative posts about sponsors had been edited or removed. When asked to send through details the person never again contacted on the matter - it is much easier to make a sweeping accusation than to provide facts.

In actual fact members are free to make factual comments from personal experience about sponsors on the site and a sponsorship from a major New Zealand company was ended largely as a result of the move2nz team receiving negative feedback from members publicly posted on the forum. We took action to end the sponsorship rather than remove the postings as you are suggesting.

Your comment about admins threatening law suits against people for wanting to hang out is poorly informed and incorrect. I note that the person you are referring to has now distanced her group from your website as the link to her site that was appearing on every page of yours is now gone.

Your comment about reading private messages again is not only poorly informed and incorrect, but written in order to damage the reputation of the site.

You have also tried to damage the reputation of the site by printing a small part of the story of Trisha, one of the founding members of your site. A couple of points here:

- This email was sent under a legal disclaimer which you have breached.

- You have failed to point out your own connection with this person.

- You have attempted to give a misleading impression of this sad situation with the intention of making me look bad - another email sent at the same time to the other email address Trisha was using specifically explained exactly why the action was taking place but you used this one instead.

- You have failed to give a full account of this person's activity on our site thereby creating a misleading impression. For example this member broke several site rules including logging in under a different name intentionally to mislead site administrators:

"I am hiding on the site at the moment as Tamdan - Mike has blocked most of my other attempts to join, but I was more clever this time and set up a UK yahoo address."

and intentionally misleading other members by using a false account name to agree with her actual persona. Naturally she was blocked.

- move2nz reserves the right to block people from the site to protect it's members and in this case the blocking was justified as the person logged on specifically to contact other members using our private message system to denigrate the site.

- The defamatory statement you have printed is not the one this email was in answer to - you have again been poorly informed or mislead. The text you have printed is new to me and I have failed to find it on our forum or in any of the private messages sent through our site. I do not know where you got it from.

At the bottom line, what has any of this situation got to do with you anyway? What is your purpose in attacking me and my site in this manner? I think anyone reading this should consider the source before making any conclusions based on the false information you have published.

This was immediately followed by an e-mail:

Agness,

You have published statements about move2nz on the website Hibernium.com. I have posted comment on these to be added in reply should you refuse to take these down but wish you to take all mention of move2nz off your site as the statements are misleading, poorly informed and untrue. Additional legal action will ensue if you fail to remove these comments immediately.

I fail to understand why you are continuing to attack myself, my wife and my organisation with these defamatory statements. Perhaps you could explain.

Mike
move2nz - helping migrants become kiwis

I have an e-mail from Person 1 saying a criticism of Kiwibank was censored. I also have an e-mail from Person 2 stated s/he wasn't going to discuss it on the site because the admins would just become unpleasant. Have you noticed that you call a lot of people liars? Let's have those facts. Tell your members which company it was, so they can avoid it. If you mean CuteOverload, it was only on the FP. If you mean Welly Rocks, that was FP only too. BTW, Wellington dwellers, I highly recommend Welly Rocks. Nice people. By snooping on people's PMs, you've damaged your own reputation. Don't pin it on me. Finally, some organization. See Part 6 for responses. Not according to your own TOS. And do you really want to SUE everyone who sets up more than one account? Yes, yes, block away. The bone of contention here is, are you being reasonable by threatening to sue over this? First good question you've asked. Put down the paranoia and ask yourself: Why do I find myself separating people into friends and foes? Why did I threaten harm to people who I've sat down to eat with? And most of all: Is it me?

Part 4: Is there an echo in here?

November 9, 2007 4:15:39 PM GMT+13:00

Hi Agness,

Thank you for your reply which saves time. As stated in my reply to your post, I have removed the link and mention of your site from move2nz because of your refusal to remove defamatory statements about move2nz and its administrators from your site. Please do not post any further links or mention of your web address. All mention of your site on move2nz will be removed immediately. Should you post a link or mention of your site again on any part of move2nz your account will be closed. Thanks for the English lesson but you are incorrect. I shall gather legal advice and either I or my solicitor will be in touch in due course.

Kind regards, Mike move2nz - helping migrants become kiwis

My turn:

November 9, 2007 5:22:47 PM GMT+13:00

Hello Mike,

You and Tammy, on the other hand, are welcome to mention move2nz on Expat Exposed. I've noticed that you've taken advantage of the profile to link to move2nz. The privacy of your private messages will also be respected.

Hope to hear from your legal counsel soon,

Agness

Part 3: A boy called Sue

In early November, I went back to move2nz and announced that as per Tammy's angry suggestions, we the critical expats had put together our own site. I admit fully to being sarcastic about it. I don't take well to having my friends threatened, particularly when, as the admins well know, they are having a very hard time in New Zealand. The result was the following e-mail.

November 8, 2007 6:15:30 PM GMT+13:00
Re: expatexposed.com
I noticed your posting on move2nz under the name 'Wintersmith' and reviewed your site.

Statements have been posted in the public areas of your site which are defamatory and untrue:

"What happened between you and move2nz?
We the founding members and bloggers all met on the move2nz forum. We banded together because each of us increasingly found ourselves under attack by the administrators and other members for discussing the negative aspects of life here, despite the fact that we contributed other kinds of posts and took care to observe the rules as well as be sensitive to others' feelings.

"We also felt that the admins were verbally abusive and overly controlling, ejecting members for organizing their own meetups, threatening legal action without merit and seemingly taking the view that they owned the very idea of Web-based networking for expats in New Zealand. Most of us founding members are Web/IT professionals, and this type of attitude was particularly dismaying to us."

"I'm a move2nz member... Am I welcome here?"

"move2nz. A smaller-scale site with Christchurch focus."

Comments and inferences have also been made about the move2nz site and it's administrators in other areas of your site. I regret that you and your associates feel it necessary to attack move2nz is this way.

Please immediately remove any and all mention of and inference to the move2nz website, it's administrators, agents, associates and moderators. If you have not complied with this request by 12pm Monday 12th November NZT I shall seek legal advice on taking matters futher.

Mike move2nz - helping migrants become kiwis

In a quirky move, they then immediately proceeded to register with Expat Exposed, which happens to be an open board readable to non-members. Having approved their membership, I replied as follows:

November 8, 2007 9:23:36 PM GMT+13:00
Hi Mike and Tammy,
First of all, welcome to Expat Exposed. Mike, I've approved you for the Christchurch usergroup, as requested. As for the other request, there's no need for you to wait until Monday the 12th--please go ahead and consult your lawyer today.

Best regards,

Agness Kaku

P.S. I think you mean "mentions and references". "Inference" is something you would have to come up with from the former.

"Then start your own website...its simple and I will even have a link directing people to it!" "Maybe you lot should start your own website or maybe Mike and I will walk away from move2nz, let it get full of advertsing and go the same way as the other forums." "Per Tammy's suggestion, I've thrown together a community site that focuses on the downsides of migrating to New Zealand. Thank you to Tammy and Mike for inviting us to link off of move2nz, and hope to see some of you at Expat Exposed!" "Tell you what, come to South Africa and see how you get treated, you'll get used to that treatment."
"s**t happens, get over it ! You have been allowed to emigrate to NZ, you probably have a job, a house, a car... Advanced Democratic countries like NZ are not racist ."
"Is this site such an eyesore on the Internet? Is the idea of people trying to help others for nothing upsetting you? Or do you have another reason to try and damage this site?"
"this destructive pillock... If I had a vote, mine would be to remove his posts and his profile." etc., etc. Well, I could easily switch it out to "bullying" or "paranoiac". "A long standing member that was very active here and organised many of the move2nz meetups, decided to set up her own "BRAND" using our members and effectivily cutting move2nz out of the Wellington Network. Mike and I...have worked so hard over the last 2.5 year....and I don't think its fair that someone should come along and take the credit... today this ex member has used current move2nz members to post about her meetup on the move2nz website."
So... they cut out move2nz by posting on the move2nz site? And that "brand" consists of a Blogger page detailing the gatherings. Hm, do they really want to try and prove they're bigger than British Expat, EmigrateNZ or Expat Focus? If you're going to bluff, you should at least give yourself fully to dramatics. "At exactly one past midnight, November the 12th..." would be a good place to start.

Part 2: Not-so-private messages

Threatening to sue someone is an act of emotional violence. I talked to people who were threatened with lawsuit by move2nz owners, and I was struck by both the level of distress the memory still caused them, and the lack of skepticism with which they regarded the threat. As an American, I forget what dreadful power the threat of a lawsuit still holds for many people. I took someone to court for the first time when I was 20 (I won), and while it gave me enormous appreciation for the time, the expense and the tedium involved, it also demolished any superstitious awe I may have still had for the process. The service of a lawyer is an established fact in American life, and even here, the company I co-own with another expat (Expat Exposed) is all squared away with a local law firm and a ribbon on top.

The interesting thing is, the owners of move2nz aren't American. They're British, and have also had their own traumatic brush with a disreputable company threatening a meritless lawsuit. Whether that incident gave them ideas, I don't know. But as Brits, they would presumably have full appreciation of the distress they were causing the fellow Brits and continental Europeans they threatened in turn.

Here's a sample of a threat they sent to someone ("Trisha", now a member of Expat Exposed), just for logging back in and sending an e-mail after she had left move2nz:

Hi Tricia,

I have monitored your use of the site under the name 'Tamdan' since August despite your confirmations that you would not access the site.

While you were not causing additional michief I tolerated the access however I noticed recently that you contacted a member and made defamatory statements about me personally. Your comments were I believe malicious and defamatory and I shall be taking legal advice to see whether I should begin a legal action against you. My solicitor will be in contact in due course.

Your account has been closed and any further activity on the site is strictly forbidden.

Please note:
Any attempt to access the site will be met by legal action against you.
Any further defamatory statements against myself or move2nz will be met by the strongest legal action I can bring.
I am saddened that after all the assistance we attempted to give you and the friendship we thought we had built you have decided to personally attack me. Shame on you.

Regards,

Mike

And what is this defamatory statement? Drumrolls please:

"Mike and Tammy were not happy as they thought we were all being too negative and in the end we either were asked to leave or chose to leave ourselves to avoid further tension."

So... In order to even have a shot at claiming libel, they have to prove they were actually HAPPY with us.

As the lolcats say, 'I'm in UR private messages, violating UR trust'

What Is Wrong with Move2NZ? Part 1: Why I don't like 'em

There's a site called move2nz.com, which we used when researching the migration to NZ. At one point, I remember reading a very personal and hostile remark by one of the 2 site owners/admins, and thinking, wow, she must be having a really bad day. I then discovered that any day was a bad day if someone said there were things New Zealand scored low on. Or when they criticized a sponsor. Or tried to meet offline without move2nz sanction. Or tried to call the admins on any of these bizarro behaviors.

You get the idea.

It wasn't long before I ticked them off, of course. There's absolutely no use trying to get some people to see reason. What can you do with someone who doesn't understand that traffic is gold, and I (and other public enemies) was generating plenty of those with our posts? So in partnership with another expat, I set up a community, Expat Exposed, devoted to the downside of NZ. Someone has to do it, and anyone who doesn't agree or want to know can just avoid the site. See how that works? All bow before the segmentation power of the Internet. Intriguingly enough, numerous people sent me an e-mail to the effect of, I like what you're doing, I stopped posting on move2nz after being shouted down, or I was kicked out for just setting up my own NZ blog, then branded an idea thief. After talking to several people, I was amazed to find out that the admins had actually threatened people with lawsuits simply for wanting to hang out together online and offline, outside of move2nz. As if that weren't nutty enough, they were apparently in the habit of reading the private messages of members they took a dislike to.

To be honest, I grew increasingly aghast that none of these people had bothered to go on the record with their story. By choosing to simply drop out of view, they not only failed to provide a check for this kind of behavior, but they also left the door open for new arrivals to walk into the same kind of unpleasantness and distress. This doesn't sit right with me. So, here are some move2nz-related correspondences and observations for public perusal. You can decide for yourself whether these are the kind of people you want to get close to or not. "this blows me away..... and I hope this not going to turn into a whinging pom thread... I must also commment that there are people in the world that are not happy unless they are complaining..."