Friday, July 11, 2008

Mr. Neil Madsen

From Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: July 11, 2008 6:35:25 AM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

I had forgotten all about this website. I now know why. It is vile. Absolutely fucking vile.
New Zealand, like anywhere, isn't perfect but we have built a great life here.
You and your group of morons seem to think that New Zealand is the only country with problems.
Maybe you should take a closer look at your previous homelands sometime. I travel with
my job alot. I am a regular visitor to the USA, Canada, Australia and the UK and I read the
same headlines there.
If only some of you would channel your energies elsewhere, you could do something amazing!


From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:04:19 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Dear Neil,

We would advise people not to sign up with sites they find "absolutely fucking vile". It really does save everyone a lot of time.

From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: July 16, 2008 6:20:07 AM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hi there

Thanks for your reply.

I will tell you why I signed up for this website when I heard about it on the Network news last year.

I was concerned and I wanted to help as moving to a new country is a difficult, stressful and expensive
exercise. I know, I have done it and guess what? I moved back here because its actually a great
place to be.

But upon investigating further into this website I have discovered that my new fellow countrymen
regarded me and all other New Zealanders as liars and thieves, bad tradesmen and arrogant. We all
beat our wives and children, we mug every tourist etc etc etc. The list goes on. And of course
these things never happen in the US or the UK.

Many of the criticisms thrown at New Zealand are based on statistics. Anyone who has studied statistics
will know that when you have a small population sample, you will have high variation. Well, New Zealand
has a small population so thats why we nearly always appear at the top of the scale or at the bottom.
Wintersmith is a strong offender here. Whenever NZ rates highly in something (and yes, it does happen),
she picks the stat apart to make it bad. When NZ rates poorly in something, she leaves the
stat as it is. A complete joke.

I apologise for my bad language in my previous email, but I can understand why some people
feel insulted by some of the content of this website. If I emigrated to the U.S and set up
something like this, I would be lynched at dawn. Possibly quite rightly.

Thank you for reading my email

Neil


From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:26:59 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Dear Neil,

Your apology is accepted, and appreciated. We get a lot of hate mail and threats, but nobody's ever apologized for one before.

I can confidently say that if someone built an "Immigrants beware, the U.S. has a lot of problems" Web site, nobody would care. In fact, nobody would bother to build one because America's dark side is very well known all over the world already. In the country itself, you can find "it's hard to live in America" articles every day by scanning major newspapers and magazines. Criticizing the society we live in is considered a birthright as an American, even a patriotic duty. Among people who are your peers in level of education (guessing from your writing), a suggestion of lynching would be met with, well, incredulity.

You take issues with my use of stats, and I'm fine with that. It's a valid criticism in and of itself. What you're missing is the context of Expat Exposed. If you're a non-Kiwi skilled migrants these days, you're beset by an incredible volume of positive spin and misinformation. New Zealand Immigration Service is a top offender, and there's a lot of people (a Dept. of Labour employee I spoke to estimated that it was now in the top 6 of Kiwi industries) making a living as migration service providers of all sorts. The funny thing is, a large number of migrants from the UK actually end up starting a business in tourism or migrant field, instead of getting more useful jobs. The overall effect is a pretty unrealistic picture of New Zealand supported by the government, private sector and landed migrants themselves. The media is also poor at presenting a balanced view, to say the least. So on one hand, there's an army of overly optimistic spin, backed by millions of dollars. And then there's us, 3 people with laptops, trying to provide a small reality check.

It would be really refreshing if even half the people who send us hate mail complained to NZIS about selling NZ too hard to migrants, or to Fairfax Media for harping on just the problems caused by migrants, or to the expat forums who kick out members who've talked about not being able to find a job because of no "Kiwi experience".

You know what's rather funny, Neil? All we wanted was to set up a quiet board to talk about the social ills found in NZ, the kind that you and I can both agree that any OECD nation has. A couple of us were having trouble with really greedy landlords. Another's son was being bullied for being foreign. There were 3 or 4 teachers who couldn't get any schools to hire them. Those of us of Asian and Middle-Eastern extraction were really struggling with racial prejudice. Problem with loud hoons, dismay about cultural differences regarding things like alcohol and corporal punishment, issues that we just wanted to discuss with each other and also share with willing prospective migrants. A pretty modest wish, anyone would say, but existing boards wouldn't let us do this in peace. So we had to go to the trouble of building our own. When we were 3 weeks old and had 25 members—and happy with how small and safe it was—it all went to hell. Some British migration consultant who'd been threatening to sue us called a national television network on us. And amazingly enough, the network actually decided we were worth doing a story on. And instead of saying, "Couldn't TV ONE find something more important to talk about?" a lot of viewers went crazy for it. The response was big enough for TVNZ to bring me back 2 more times. They even gave out my mobile number (without permission) to some National MP, and tried their deceitful best to put me on camera with her.

Forget the statistics, this chain of events itself shows something pretty sick. Why did so many Kiwis become so angry at a small group of people talking about the bad things that happened to them in NZ? Why are so many migrants so toxically angry with Kiwi society, to the point that some declare that they hate all Kiwis? Why does NZ's ratepayer-funded television network go around chasing this non-story, and spin it intentionally to cause potentially dangerous controversy? Why exactly were they using the fake controversy to boost the National Party? Why have we had to deal with literally hundreds of instances of vandalism and harassment, all originating from Kiwi IPs, in the 8 months since that idiotic news coverage?

In a neat parallel, someone built something like Expat Exposed, but more extreme, for Canada (NotCanada.com). The Canadians did not pillory them on national news, not once, not twice, certainly not 3 times. Instead, there was an online article on CTV about it, a very balanced one talking about how badly the country was failing both skilled immigrants and Canadian society. The article didn't deny the problems NotCanada pointed out, but actually presented supporting evidence. The difference was heartbreaking.

Thank you again for communicating with us, and taking the time to apologize. Let me know if you'd like your account deactivated.


Best regards,

Agness Kaku, aka Wintersmith
Co-Admin, Expat Exposed


From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: July 25, 2008 1:37:13 PM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hi ya Agnes
Greetings from a very sunny Auckland!
Thanks for your interesting e-mail and for taking the time to come back to me.
I certainly take on some of the points you have made, and I am disgusted that you have been the target of vandalism and harassment. That is not acceptable.

I have no doubt about some of the problems migrants have when they come here, how often have we heard about doctors driving taxis in Central Auckland? Only a few months back I was shopping in Harvey Norman and the sales chap was from Iraq. He was a Boeing 747 Captain who has had his pilots license withdrawn by the US Government so he can no longer fly. Whilst his anger was definitely directed at the Americans, surely a man of this stature should be doing more than selling washing machines. After making the sale, he took me over to the cashier to pay for my purchase. The cashier was also from Iraq. She was a fully qualified rocket scientist who had previously worked on Saddam’s
Weapons programs. Whilst the demand for rocket scientists in New Zealand is pretty much non existence, it was a shame to see such a bright young(ish) women sitting at a till in a department store.
Both could have been contributing much more to the New Zealand economy.

But I do wonder sometimes if people apply themselves, or if people expect too much at first. I moved to the UK in 1988. I was fully qualified in my field but when I got there I could not get a job at all because I had no UK work experience. Sound familiar? Very frustrating. So what did I do? I didn’t bitch and moan, I got a job in a call centre (same industry). A massive step back in stature and pay. I hated it, but after 5 months I had my UK work experience. What a load of bollocks! After about a further 12 months I landed the job I should have had all along. I returned to New Zealand in 1997 and had to go through it all again. So, it doesn’t just happen to migrants.

Obviously I don’t agree with everything you have mentioned. I think your website was newsworthy. Not in a big way and certainly not an ongoing story, but we have it very good here for many years and there is a percentage of the population that think that all is okay. Pointing out that there are problems from another perspective, and being the first to do it will make the news on a quiet day. Of course if Helen Clarke revealed she was a man, or if Graham Henry had farted in public, then I guess you wouldn’t have got a look in.

Thank you for the link to NotCanada.com. Very interesting. I saw your contribution in regards to kiwis taking a panning very badly ! I think most kiwis can handle some criticism but I think what has upset some, including myself, is the personal attacks on us. I have read grossly exaggerated attacks from your contributor DANINNZ which I find offensive. For example he says that NZ has a food poisoning rate 25 times higher than the USA. Bullshit! And that you have to watch the hygiene standards when visiting NZ homes. I’m sorry but my house is spotless. So are all my friends.

Agnes, I will take my hat off to you though. You came here, it didn’t work out so you left again. That’s more than some will do so good on you. Just as an interest, did you go back to the US? Or have you tried somewhere else? The other things I would like to know is, what were you expecting here?
And where did you live in NZ? I have a feeling from the news it was Christchurch?

Just for your interest. I am a New Zealander married to a migrant. I travel to the US sometimes up to 4 times a month. If don’t go there I go to either Hong Kong, Japan, Australia and Canada. I’m University educated (hence the business with statistics!!) and have a pretty good idea of what’s going on in the world. Whilst I recognise the problems in/with New Zealand, I still regard it as one of the best countries in the world to live. Just my opinion of course!
Take care, and hear from you again
Neil


From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 01:52:13 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Hi Neil,

I'm going to try and answer your major points, but I will probably have to bow out of further private back-and-forth on this (if you want to give me permission to post this exchange and perhaps even add to it, be my guest). A lot of the same ground has already been covered on the board more than once, and the amount of mail I get—in addition to actual paying work and getting our life back in shape after this expensive migration—really limits my time.

On Jul 25, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Neil Madsen wrote:

I have no doubt about some of the problems migrants have when they come here, how often have we heard about doctors driving taxis in Central Auckland? Only a few months back I was shopping in Harvey Norman and the sales chap was from Iraq. He was a Boeing 747 Captain who has had his pilots license withdrawn by the US Government so he can no longer fly. Whilst his anger was definitely directed at the Americans, surely a man of this stature should be doing more than selling washing machines. After making the sale, he took me over to the cashier to pay for my purchase. The cashier was also from Iraq. She was a fully qualified rocket scientist who had previously worked on Saddam’s
Weapons programs. Whilst the demand for rocket scientists in New Zealand is pretty much non existence, it was a shame to see such a bright young(ish) women sitting at a till in a department store.
Both could have been contributing much more to the New Zealand economy.


I think it's interesting that you felt justified anger very easily against the U.S. government/employers, but stop well short of that reaction against the New Zealand equivalent. You're going to have to ask yourself if misplaced patriotism plays some part in that difference. From where I'm standing, both countries have screwed them over pretty badly.


But I do wonder sometimes if people apply themselves, or if people expect too much at first. I moved to the UK in 1988. I was fully qualified in my field but when I got there I could not get a job at all because I had no UK work experience. Sound familiar? Very frustrating. So what did I do? I didn’t bitch and moan, I got a job in a call centre (same industry). A massive step back in stature and pay. I hated it, but after 5 months I had my UK work experience. What a load of bollocks! After about a further 12 months I landed the job I should have had all along. I returned to New Zealand in 1997 and had to go through it all again. So, it doesn’t just happen to migrants.


What you're missing here is that skilled migrants are being aggressively courted by NZ. Try sending away for the standard NZIS packet, or attend one of many expos overseas. You'll be amazed to learn that NZ is struggling to fill a variety of skilled jobs, and is *begging* for educated, motivated people to come and fill those jobs. As a part of the skilled migrant process, they give you points for being in a skills shortage area. They assess your overseas qualifications and 'convert' them to Kiwi equivalent, and give you points for those too. All this creates an impression so strong as to be a promise: that these qualifications will be honored when you get to NZ, that these unfilled jobs are real, and that as a fully-vetted skilled migrant (we have to submit health and police certificates, fergodssake), employers won't treat you like a criminal/idiot/Ebola patient. If you'd gone through the same wooing and vetting process when you went to the UK, the inability to get a skilled job wouldn't have been just frustrating—it would have been devastating. Having gritted your teeth and did what you had to, you can probably appreciate even more how much grit—don't see any lack of application or bitching there—the pilot and the propulsion engineer are showing, working at Harvey Norman after having made the cut to migrate to a country that supposedly wanted them for their education and skills. And all this while their country burns.

Obviously I don’t agree with everything you have mentioned. I think your website was newsworthy. Not in a big way and certainly not an ongoing story, but we have it very good here for many years and there is a percentage of the population that think that all is okay. Pointing out that there are problems from another perspective, and being the first to do it will make the news on a quiet day. Of course if Helen Clarke revealed she was a man, or if Graham Henry had farted in public, then I guess you wouldn’t have got a look in.


My second appearance was on the day of the Russian elections returns. The year and a half we were there, anxiety about "non-traditional" migrants, the outflow of Kiwis and "OMG the Asians!" were nearly constantly in the news. The message is regularly coming in from all sides, but the country doesn't want to have a discussion. The media just sets up and shoots each messenger, and then the whole thing begins again. Coming from a country that's convinced half its citizens that discussing problems is a bad idea, I can honestly say that this is dangerous practice.

Thank you for the link to NotCanada.com. Very interesting. I saw your contribution in regards to kiwis taking a panning very badly ! I think most kiwis can handle some criticism but I think what has upset some, including myself, is the personal attacks on us.


If people aren't talking about you, as in Neil Madsen, how can it be "personal"? An insightful author once noted something called the "Kiwi personalized view of the world", or some such. I think the gist of his observations was that in New Zealand, arguments and actions are hardly ever received as abstract, or on meta-level. Everything is taken personally, and relates to the personhood, whether it's being fired or having some social policy criticized. When I heard about that, a lot of things clicked into place. It was astounding, the sheer number of Kiwis who, like you, reacted as though their mom had been insulted, when it was government policies and social trends that were being criticized. Like it or not, this is a real phenomenon. And it's a Kiwi cultural characteristics that migrants should know about before coming over, because it's a rather unusual trait and one that a lot of people just won't be able to adapt.

I have read grossly exaggerated attacks from your contributor DANINNZ which I find offensive. For example he says that NZ has a food poisoning rate 25 times higher than the USA. Bullshit! And that you have to watch the hygiene standards when visiting NZ homes. I’m sorry but my house is spotless. So are all my friends.

Does his experience invalidate yours? Does your experience invalidate his? No. Neither of you have to be lying or spouting bullshit. Maybe he lives in a different region from you. Maybe you mix with a different socioeconomic status than him. Maybe you guys have different standards of home care. Why take something like this so personally, and so hard? This kind of overreaction really is something that most Exies agree is consistent and very tough to deal with. Most of us come from backgrounds where you have to be able to disagree with people without getting personal, and learned thanks to the Web to stay away from thing you have no control over that drives you nuts. As for something that cites hard facts like food poisoning, just do a calm once-over of the study this person cites, and make a case for why the claim is absurd. Have faith in people's ability to spot reason.

Agnes, I will take my hat off to you though. You came here, it didn’t work out so you left again. That’s more than some will do so good on you.


Ah, but the fact that we could leave is more a function of our financial, professional and familial freedom. I know people who can't leave, because of money, custody issues, money, and even depression. They're not less worthy of admiration because they haven't left.

Just as an interest, did you go back to the US? Or have you tried somewhere else?


No, we've decided to settle in Tokyo.


The other things I would like to know is, what were you expecting here?


There's a post by me called "Musings from the Land of Shrimp" that pretty much covers the topic. It's in "Features".

And where did you live in NZ? I have a feeling from the news it was Christchurch?


Yes indeed, since NZIS gave us IT people extra points for staying out of Auckland and for moving to the "Canterbury Software Cluster".

Just for your interest. I am a New Zealander married to a migrant. I travel to the US sometimes up to 4 times a month. If don’t go there I go to either Hong Kong, Japan, Australia and Canada. I’m University educated (hence the business with statistics!!) and have a pretty good idea of what’s going on in the world. Whilst I recognise the problems in/with New Zealand, I still regard it as one of the best countries in the world to live. Just my opinion of course!


If you're living where you want to, that makes you one of the luckiest people in the world.

My correspondence to you was never about trying to convince you that I'm not an asshole; it was about trying to get past your anger and show you the other New Zealand that all these posts revealed. Yes, you're going to be able to find something imperfect about every poster. If you want to, you'll be able to dismiss this one for not being well-traveled, that one for coming across as snobbish, and this one for sounding a little nuts. You can do that with any human being, and be safe from ever having to deal with the ills that plague them. Or you can rise above the personalized view and see the big picture that this mixed bag of people are showing us, a surprisingly consistent picture. The country that you love and enjoy could use a clearer eye right now. Rooking people in with propaganda just to keep the country afloat is neither realistic nor moral, and will bring New Zealand a worse place in the long run.

Best of luck,

Agness


From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: August 7, 2008 5:15:58 AM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Ohayoo Bozaimasu Agnes

Thanks for your reply.

Tokyo. Thats an interesting choice. My company has strong connections with Japan and I go there
about 5-6 times a year. My brother is also a pilot for JAL. Great place, nice food but its beyond me why you would want to live there.
The sheer size of the population, the matchbox size houses, the pollution and the smoking in restaurants etc does not make
it an attractive destination. I find it funny that you once labelled New Zealanders racist when the Japanese are the biggest racist of all. The Japanese people on the face of it are lovely, very polite. But the way they won’t confront you face to face over an issue is deeply disturbing. Only behind your back will they settle things. Trust me, you will become very familiar with the saying “Beware of the Smiling Knife”.
Maybe its being back in a big economy that makes you feel more secure.

It is now absolutely clear that New Zealand was never going to be the place for you.
You are right. I am lucky to live somewhere where I am happy. I have a fantastic job and a great life. But I built this life myself and so can any migrant who comes here.


Don't worry, I have no intention of continuing this personal correspondence. You will not hear from me again. I have had my say. Whilst I respect your opinions, and even agree with some, I don’t feel that is mirrored by yourself. In fact, judging by some of your answers, it is clear you have misread many of my points. Its not me that’s angry….

Would you please deactivate my account. I have no further use for it. I would have dearly loved to have helped some of you but I would be wasting my time. On the site when you make a positive comment on NZ, or if you correct someone with some facts., you get a minus point. Pretty pathetic and not very democratic. I even got one from you - cheers!
Enjoy Japan, hope it works out for you and your family. Sayoonara!

Neil
Aka oceancolourscene

From: admin@expatexposed.com
Subject: Re: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:45:52 +0900
To: Neil Madsen

Hello Neil,

Your deactivation request will be processed within 48 hours. And don't worry about us in Tokyo (both lived there before, speak the language fluently); as with any destination, it's about whether the positives outweigh the negative for the individual. For *us*, it does. The reason migrants aren't rushing unawares to Tokyo or Japan is that the drawbacks you mention and more are common knowledge—and achieving that visibility for NZ's downsides is what we're trying to do with Expat Exposed. As for the 'smiling knife' saying, that's definitely not Japanese. Whoever told you that was confused, I think.

Re: your login, I wish you'd seen fit to have this exchange on the board if you'd already signed up. That way, other people would have been able to benefit from our exchange of opinions. They would have also been able to see the other side of you—the part that's capable of apologizing for lashing out, the part that wants to have a conversation instead of hitting and running. If it hurt you that you didn't get a thumbs-up, it's a double shame. If you'd revealed this side of yourself in public, I'm certain that people, including myself, would have given you credit for it. The funny thing is, having had the bad experience we did, we're complete suckers for Kiwis that are capable of empathizing, and want to talk to us like human beings. It's the reason people voted to award a recent contest prize to a charming Cantabrian in his 70s, instead of to a migrant.

Sadly, all we've seen of "oceancolourscene" on the board is hostile behavior like the "Why are you still bothering us, go away!" comment; aside from me, nobody else on the board got to know that there's more to you than this.

I've had quite a few personal exchanges with people who've started off writing me nasty notes, and it's been a fascinating ride. I think New Zealand is way overdue for an intensive national discussion about migration—both of Kiwis leaving and new migrants coming in. People have a lot of valuable things to say after they're done with the initial yelling and swearing, and it's time to build some public policy out of them.


Good luck,

ASK


From: Neil Madsen
Subject: RE: A Modest Contest and Other Winter Perks
Date: August 7, 2008 3:22:46 PM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hello Agnes

Thanks for deactivating my account, you won't hear from me again.

Please don't think I'm knocking your decision to go to Tokyo. I think the point I was making
is its a world away from New Zealand so I can see why you didn't like it here. This will make
you laugh, I would rather live in Tokyo than Christchurch! Please don't think I'm anti - Japanese.
Far from it, I have many Japanese friends and hope to have many more.
However, the "smiling knife" thing came from a Japanese co-worker in regards
to another one. She was infact a completely nasty piece of work so maybe they only keep
that saying for her type. I am right though in saying they don't like direct confrontation.

My comment on "why are you bothering us?" is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever
said and I am embarassed. I have learnt from it and regret it. Engaging the brain in first
gear before speaking is an old motto, but a very good one.

Take care Agnes. Hope everything works out for you and your family

Neil

Wednesday, January 16, 2008

Mr. Barry Davidson

From: barry davidson (pukemanu38@gmail.com)
Subject: Re: The "Big Picture" rule has been de-fuzzed
Date: January 16, 2008 6:48:05 PM JST
To: admin@expatexposed.com

Hey,
If you don't want to be here, fine, go back where you came from, if you can't afford the return fare, fine let me know please, i know hundreds of kiwis who will buy your tickets for. Make way for all the people who want to come and live here. We are sick of whingeing buggars that don't know a good thing when it bites them on the bum. If you can't get work or fit in with our way of life perhaps you should take a long hard look at yourself. This is NOT the USA,thank goodness, or any other country, this is New zealand.
You can stuff your "Big Picture" rule or any other rule, where the sun don't shine.
Please, please do us all a big favour and bugger off, maybe to Kenya, or Mogadishu, anywhere but here.
Barry Davidson
ex member of expatexposed.